TEXT: Press Conference by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao at the 4th FOCAC Ministerial Conference

Quote of the Day

"Many people are trying to offer prescriptions for Africa's development, such as the "Washington Consensus" or the "Beijing Model". Yet it seems to me that Africa's development should be based on its own conditions and should follow its own path, that is, the African Model. All countries have to learn from other countries' experience in development. At the same time, they have to follow a path suited to their own national conditions and based on the reality of their own countries. In the final analysis, the development of a country depends on the efforts of its own people. Any enterprise that wants to do business in Africa has to take account of local conditions." - Chinese premier Wen Jiabao, Nov. 09, 2009

Source: Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the People's Republic of China
Transcript of Press Conference by Premier Wen Jiabao At the Fourth FOCAC Ministerial Conference
November 09, 2009.  Copy in full:

Wen Jiabao: Friends from the press, good afternoon. Sharm El Sheikh is beautiful. The host told me that it would take at least seven days to fully enjoy the city. But I have only less than twenty-four hours. During my stay here I attended the opening ceremony of an important meeting, the Fourth FOCAC Ministerial Conference. I met with thirteen leaders from African countries. Now I have set aside some time to meet with the press and answer your questions.

I. Egyptian newspaper "Pyramids": You have announced at the opening ceremony of the Forum eight new measures for developing China-Africa cooperation. In 2006, Chinese President Hu Jintao announced at the FOCAC Beijing Summit eight measures to strengthen China-Africa practical cooperation. What are the differences and similarities between theses measures? What role will these measures play in promoting China-Africa relations?

My second question is: During your stay in Egypt, you met the Egyptian President and Prime Minister. You have also talked to the Egyptian people. What are the topics you discussed during these meetings? What is your impression of the Egyptian civilization?

Wen: During the FOCAC Beijing Summit in 2006, President Hu Jintao announced on behalf of the Chinese government eight measures to strengthen China-Africa practical cooperation and support the development of African countries. Reviewing the progress of the last three years, the eight measures have basically been implemented. The eight new measures that I announced this morning at the opening ceremony of the Fourth FOCAC Ministerial Conference are aimed at the same goal of improving the capacity of African countries for self-development. The new measures focus more on the improvement of people's well-being, health care, education and other social development programs, the construction of agricultural and basic infrastructures, and the protection of eco-environment. For instance, we have proposed to help African countries build 100 clean energy projects like solar power, biogas, and small hydro-power plants, provide RMB500 million yuan worth of medical equipment and malaria-fighting materials to thirty hospitals and thirty malaria prevention and control centers built by China, build fifty schools, and help Africa train more personnel.

I had an in depth exchange of views with Egyptian President Mubarak. We both agreed that following the establishment of strategic and cooperative relations between the two countries in 1999 and the formulation of the Implementation Outline for Deepening Strategic and Cooperative Relations Between China and Egypt in 2006, China-Egypt relations have entered a new stage of development. This is manifested in stronger political mutual trust, further growth of economic and trade cooperation, and more active exchanges in culture and education. Both Egypt and China are ancient civilizations. Egypt was the first African and Arab country to recognize New China. It was also the first to establish strategic cooperative relations with China. The consolidation and development of China-Egypt friendly and cooperative relations will not only benefit our two peoples, but also promote China's relationship with African and Arab countries.

II. Business Daily, South Africa: Due to the international financial crisis, G8 members and other developed countries are slowing down their delivery of fiscal and financial assistance to developing countries as they had committed. Countries in Africa have also suffered adverse impacts from the financial crisis. Will China take measures to help African countries cope with the financial crisis?

Another question, we are lagging behind schedule in implementing the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs). Do you still see any possibility for the international community to meet the MDGs on schedule through cooperation?

Wen: The current international financial crisis is unprecedented in the course of last one hundred years. It has not only exerted serious impact on developed countries, but also brought grave consequences to developing countries, particularly the least developed ones. Due to the international financial crisis, some banks are downsizing their loans for African countries. However, China has promised that it will not cut its assistance or decrease its credit and loan support to African countries and other developing countries. I announced at the opening ceremony of the Fourth FOCAC Ministerial Conference the plan to give US$10 billion preferential loans to support African countries.

In the global financial crisis, what people tend to easily ignore is the implementation of the Millennium Development Goals. On many occasions including the UN meetings last year and this year's World Economic Forum in Davos, I appealed to the international community to place importance on the implementation of the MDGs and the support and assistance to developing countries, the least developed ones in particular. It seems to me this issue remains serious. Here I would like to once again appeal to the international community to work hard with firm determination and effective measures to reach the MDGs while tackling the global financial crisis.

III. Macao Asia Satellite TV:  You have visited the training center of Huawei and the factory of the Brilliance Auto. At the opening ceremony of today's conference, when you announced eight new measures to strengthen China-Africa cooperation in the coming three years, you mentioned the development of new energy resources and projects for environmental protection and energy conservation. In fact, there have been quite a few Chinese enterprises specialized in this field. Do you believe we will see more success stories like that of the Brilliance Auto in Africa?

Wen:  Many people are trying to offer prescriptions for Africa's development, such as the "Washington Consensus" or the "Beijing Model". Yet it seems to me that Africa's development should be based on its own conditions and should follow its own path, that is, the African Model. All countries have to learn from other countries' experience in development. At the same time, they have to follow a path suited to their own national conditions and based on the reality of their own countries. In the final analysis, the development of a country depends on the efforts of its own people. Any enterprise that wants to do business in Africa has to take account of local conditions.

IV. Reuters:  Some people said that China is only interested in the natural resources of Africa, that China has exploited the African people while plundering Africa's natural resources. How do you respond to such criticism?

Second question, you once mentioned that you were concerned about the security of China's investment in the United States. Now more than seven months later, is your concern growing or abating?

Wen:   There has long been the argument that China is plundering Africa's resources and pursuing the so-called "neo-colonialism".   This is not worth refuting. Any one who is familiar with history would know that the friendly relations and cooperation between China and Africa did not start just yesterday but as early as half a century ago. In those years, we helped Africa build the Tanzara railway and sent to Africa large numbers of medical teams. But we did not take away a single drop of oil or a single ton of mineral ores from Africa. Objectively, what changes has China brought to Africa through its assistance measures? Since 2006, thanks to the implementation of the eight measures, more African products have entered the Chinese market and the annual trade volume between China and Africa has surged from more than US$50 billion to more than US$ 100 billion. Under the impact of the international financial crisis, the whole world has experienced investment downturn. However, in the first three quarters of 2009, China's investment in Africa increased by 77%. China has helped Africa build many schools, hospitals, and malaria prevention and treatment centers, which benefited more than 100 million African people. In fact, China's assistance to Africa has never had any political strings attached. We believe the destiny of a country is in the hands of its people.

In terms of energy, I want to tell this journalist, China is not the largest importer of Africa's oil. Our import takes up only 13% of Africa's oil export. China's investment in Africa's oil and natural gas accounts for less than 1/16 of the global investment in this field. CNPC is China's largest petroleum company. But its annual turnover is less than 1/3 of ExxonMobile. Why should China be singled out for criticism? Is this an African view point or rather a Western viewpoint? A line from a Chinese poem is sufficient to respond to this question: "A time-honored friendship is like the gold. After repeated smelting, it keeps its true color".

For your second question, I did say at the World Economic Forum in Davos this year that we were concerned about China's foreign exchange assets in the United States, because it is China's money. Our principle for the foreign exchange reserve is to ensure its security, liquidity and good value. Now the US economy is showing signs of recovery and we have seen positive changes. We hope that the United States, as the largest economy and the major reserve currency issuing country, will fulfill its responsibilities with concrete measures. Most importantly, it should keep its deficit within a proper scale and ensure the basic stability of its exchange rate. This will facilitate stability and recovery of the world economy.

V. Al Jazeera:   China often claims itself a reliable friend of Africa, but Western countries are accusing China of practicing neo-colonialism aimed at African oil and market on the ground that China is trying to expand its influence by getting actively involved in African affairs. We have also found that China's investment in and imports from Africa concentrate on oil and raw materials, but China exports manufactured goods to Africa. What's your comment on these criticisms? When will this cooperation model between China and Africa be changed? When will China invest in Africa's industrial sector, new technology and new industrial sectors instead of concentrating on infrastructure and agriculture?

My second question is: African countries support China in the international arena without any reservation, abide by the one China policy and do not develop official relations with Taiwan. Yet we find that China would sometimes decline to give full support to Africa. One example is when the UN Security Council resolution on the Sudan was put to vote in 2005, when China did not veto it. Consequently, the International Criminal Court was able to prosecute the Sudanese President Bashir.

Wen:  I have already answered your first question, but I want to add a few words. We hold the view that support between China and Africa is mutual. At the time when Africa struggled for independence, China supported it and the independent African countries also supported China in restoring its lawful seat in the United Nations. That's why we often say it is our African brothers and sisters who carried China into the United Nations. In other words, we feel indebted to the African people. I often say that one should always remember with gratitude the help one receives from others, while one should forget the help one renders to others. Our assistance to and cooperation with Africa is selfless and has no political strings attached. This is clear for all to see. Over the years, in our cooperation with and assistance to Africa, we have laid emphasis on infrastructure development and closer cooperation in agriculture, education, health and social programs, as these are what the African people need. I may give you an example. We have built a total of about 3,300 kilometers of roads and 2,200 kilometers of railways and we are now helping Africa build communications networks. We have sent a large number of medical teams to Africa. They have helped treat African patients and some of them have lost their lives and been laid to rest on this ancient continent. The ultimate goal of our assistance to and cooperation with Africa is to strengthen the self-development capacity of African countries. That is why we have placed priority on the development and utilization of mineral resources and the raw material processing industry, areas in which Africa enjoys comparative advantage. Among the projects that are being carried out to implement the eight measures we pledged to take in 2006, over 1,600 projects are related to the processing industry, including the joint copper mine development project in Zambia which have created many jobs for the local people. If you visit the training centers of the Huawei Technologies Company in Egypt, Nigeria and South Africa, you will find that they employ many African people who not only are highly skilled but also speak Chinese. In our assistance to and cooperation with Africa, we will continue to improve policy measures, with greater emphasis on training, capacity building and corporate social responsibility.

The blame you laid on China over the issue of the Sudan is unfounded. Besides, I wish to emphasize that China's position on the UN Security Council reform is consistent and clear-cut. The Security Council should increase the say and representation of developing countries, particularly African countries. We have done a lot to achieve this goal.

VI. The October Magazine of Egypt:  Firstly, what are the specific figures of China's assistance and loans to Africa? Secondly, some people say that the current problem the Sudan faces arises from the China-US rivalry for the spheres of inference in that country. What is your response to such claim?

Wen:  China's assistance to and cooperation with Africa have always been transparent and open. China's assistance to Africa reached 76 billion yuan by September 2009 and its total sum of loans 46 billion yuan by 2008.

Africa was colonized for 600 years. China shares similar experience with Africa as it was subjected to colonization after 1840. China has a population of 1.3 billion. Although the size of China's economy ranks in the forefront of the world, the development is very much unbalanced, with a big gap between the rural and urban areas and between different regions. Many people in China are still living in poverty. I wish to tell this lady that we are too busy with our own affairs to interfere in others' internal affairs. What's more, we have no intention at all to do so.

Speaking of the issue of the Sudan and Darfur, we, indeed, did several things there. First, we tried to facilitate the reconciliation between the North and the South of the Sudan. Second, China was the first non-African country to send peacekeeping troops to Darfur. Besides, China has provided selfless assistance to help the people in Darfur living in poverty. On these issues, we do not pursue any selfish interest, nor will we compete with any other country.

VII. Cameroon Daily:  Mr. Premier, a meeting of the Economic and Monetary Community of Central Africa will be held in Gabon soon to discuss the issue of global climate change. The African Union has asked the European Union to provide some financial assistance to help Africa address the challenges of climate change, for instance, to set up a fund for that purpose. Can China also provide us with some money? How will China help Africa better cope with climate change?

Wen: I have noted that the Economic and Monetary Community of Central Africa will hold a meeting on climate change. This will be an important meeting of African countries before the Copenhagen Conference. At this morning's opening ceremony, President Jean Ping of the African Union Commission introduced Africa's position on climate change on behalf of the African Union. He stated that the Copenhagen Conference should uphold the principles defined by the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, its Kyoto Protocol and the Bali Road Map and follow the principle of "common but differentiated responsibilities". China and Africa all belong to the developing world. Industrialization in its real sense has been going on in China for only a few decades. We are all victims of climate change. The Chinese side fully supports the legitimate demands presented by African countries on behalf of the under-developed countries. Developed countries should provide technical and financial assistance to developing countries to uplift their technological level and enhance their ability to adapt to climate change. We stand ready to make joint efforts with the rest of the world to strive for good outcomes of the Copenhagen Conference.

VIII. China Radio International: You have had an intense and highly efficient visit to Egypt. You said that this trip was aimed at promoting dialogue among civilizations and developing friendship and cooperation. Now that you are about to conclude your trip, how do you feel about this visit and do you think you have achieved your goals?

Wen:  I want to draw your attention to views of many African leaders, including the remarks by 17 African leaders this morning. You should also listen to what the African people say. I have read a book titled Dead Aid written by an African woman writer. The author talks about her personal experiences and draws the conclusion that China's assistance to Africa is sincere, credible, practical and efficient and is welcomed by the African people. We in China have a saying that goes, "As distance tests a horse's strength, time reveals a person's heart." I am confident that time will prove that friendship and cooperation between the Chinese and African people have a bright future.

I am scheduled to meet with six African leaders now and leave Egypt for Beijing at 10 p.m.. I am sorry I do not have time for more questions. Thank you! I wish you all the best!

Transcript of interview with Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao September 23, 2008

China's prime minister Wen Jiabao speaks out in his first interview with a Western publication in years.

Wen in New York: 'China's democracy will continue to grow'
‘We Should Join Hands’
Fareed Zakaria
NEWSWEEK
From the magazine issue dated Oct 6, 2008

In New York last week for the opening of the United Nations General Assembly, Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao gave a rare exclusive interview to NEWSWEEK's Fareed Zakaria. Wen, 66, is known for his openness and economic mastery, and has presided over some of the fastest growth in China's history. He began the conversation by pledging to "tell the truth" and invited Zakaria to interrupt him, since Wen "prefers dialogue to long-winded speeches." The two covered topics ranging from Tibet and Tiananmen Square to Darfur and human rights, from political philosophy to the U.S. elections, from the current financial crisis to the future of Chinese democracy. Excerpts:

ZAKARIA: What do you think of the financial crisis affecting the United States?

WEN: We should join hands and meet the crisis together. If the financial and economic system[s] in the United States go wrong, then the impact will be felt not only in this country, but also in China, in Asia and the world at large.

Regarding your own economy, many people now say there will be a significant slowdown. Do you think that will happen? And if it does, what do you think will be the consequences?

China's economy has been growing at an annual average rate of 9.6 percent for 30 years running. This is a miracle. And between 2003 and 2007, China enjoyed double-digit growth—yet the consumer price index grew less than 2 percent a year.

China has been proactive in adopting regulatory measures. Our previous concerns were to prevent a fast-growing economy from overheating and to prevent soaring prices from becoming inflation.

But things have changed very fast [because of] the subprime crisis in the United States and the serious turbulence that followed. We have seen a decline in external demand, and China's domestic demand cannot be significantly increased in a short period of time. [So] we do risk a slowdown. We must re-adjust macroeconomic policy.

Do you think you can continue to grow if the United States goes into a major recession?

Given the statistics for the first eight months of this year, we have managed to do that. [But] a U.S. recession would certainly have an impact on China's economy. Ten years ago, China–U.S. trade stood at only $102.6 billion. Today the figure has soared to $302 billion—a 1.5-fold increase. A shrinking of U.S. demand would certainly have an impact on China's exports. And U.S. finance is closely connected with Chinese finance. If anything goes wrong in the U.S. financial sector, we would be anxious about the security of Chinese capital.

China is the largest holder of U.S. Treasury bills - by some accounts, they're worth almost $1 trillion. Can you reassure [Americans] that China would never use this status as a weapon in some way?

We believe that the U.S. real economy is still solidly based, particularly the high-tech and basic industries. Something has gone wrong in the virtual economy, but if this problem is properly addressed, it is still possible to stabilize the economy. The Chinese government hopes to see sustained development in the United States, as that will benefit China. Of course, we are concerned about the safety and security of Chinese money here. But we believe that the United States is a credible country. And particularly at such difficult times, China has reached out to the United States. And actually we believe such a helping hand will help stabilize the entire global economy and finance and prevent major chaos from occurring ... I believe now that cooperation is everything.

Many people see China as a superpower already, and they wonder: why is it not being more active in political resolution of issues such as Darfur or Iran?

I need to correct some elements of your question. China is not a superpower. Although China has a population of 1.3 billion and although in recent years it has registered fairly fast economic and social development, China still has … 800 million farmers in rural areas and we still have dozens of millions of people living in poverty. We need to make committed and very earnest efforts to address these problems. That's why we need to focus on our own development and on our efforts to improve people's lives.

But surely the Chinese government could pressure the Sudanese government or the Iranian government or the government in Burma to be less repressive. You have relations with all three of them.

That brings me to your second question. China is a justice-upholding country. We never trade our principles. Take the Darfur issue that you raised just now, for example. China has always advocated a dual-track approach: China was among the first countries sending peacekeepers to Darfur. China was also the first country that gave assistance to Sudan, and we also keep [up] our efforts to engage the leaders in Sudan to try to seek a peaceful solution.

Do you think it would be dangerous for the world if Iran got nuclear weapons? And what do you think the world should do to try to prevent it?

We are not supportive of a nuclear rise for Iran. We believe that Iran has the right to develop a utilization of nuclear energy in a peaceful way. But such efforts should be subject to the safeguards of the IAEA, and Iran should not develop nuclear weapons … We hope that we can use peaceful talks to achieve the purpose, rather than resort to the willful use of force, or the intimidation of force. It's like a relationship between two individuals. If one individual tries to corner the other, the effect will be counterproductive. Our purpose is to resolve the problem, not to escalate tensions.

I have a question for you: don't you think that the efforts made by China in resolving the Korean nuclear issue have actually helped that situation? I know it will take time to [achieve] a complete solution to the Korean nuclear issue. But the model we have adopted has proved to be right in this direction.

China's efforts have been appreciated in the United States and around the world. And it makes people wish that China would be active in other areas in the same way.

We have gained a lot of experience and learned lessons from the years of negotiations. The progress made also had a lot to do with the close cooperation among the six parties in the talks.

The Dalai Lama says now he would accept China's rule in Tibet. Why don't you negotiate directly with him and solve this issue once and for all?

The Dalai Lama is a religious leader and enjoys certain influence in the Tibetan region. He is not an ordinary religious figure. The so-called government in exile founded by the Dalai Lama practices theocratic rule. And the purpose of this so-called government in exile is to separate Tibet from China. All over the world, the Dalai Lama keeps preaching about autonomy for the greater Tibetan region. He wants to separate the so-called greater Tibetan region from the motherland. Many people in the United States have no idea how big this region is; it covers Tibet, Sichuan, Yunnan, Qinghai and Gansu: a quarter of China's territory.

For decades, our policy [has been that] as long as the Dalai Lama is willing to recognize that Tibet is an inalienable part of China's territory, and as long as the Dalai Lama gives up his separatist activities, we're willing to have contact and talks with him or his representatives. Now, sincerity holds the key to producing results out of the talks.

What action would you like to see from the Dalai Lama that would show sincerity?

His sincerity can be demonstrated in giving up separatist activities. … Of course, talks may continue, and in light of the progress in the talks, we may also consider raising the level of the talks.

Premier Wen, your country has grown, as you pointed out, 9.5 percent for 30 years - the fastest growth rate of any country in history. What is the key to your success? What is the model?

[The answer is] the reforms and opening-up policy we introduced in 1978. We emancipated productivity in China. We had one important thought: that socialism can practice market economy.

People think that's a contradiction. How do you make both work?

Give full play to the basic role of market forces in allocating resources under the macroeconomic guidance and regulation of the government. Ensure that both the visible hand and the invisible hand are given full play. If you are familiar with Adam Smith, you will know that there are two famous works of his. "The Wealth of Nations" deals with the invisible hand: market forces. The other book deals with social equity and justice. In the other book, he stressed the importance of the regulatory role of the government to distribute wealth among the people. If most of the wealth in a country is concentrated in the hands of the few, this country can hardly [have] harmony and stability.

Some Americans and Europeans, particularly human-rights observers, say that China has cracked down on human rights over the last few years. They say they had hoped that the Olympics would lead to an opening, but there has been more repression. How would you respond?

By hosting the Olympics, China has become more open. Anyone without biases will see that. Freedom of speech and of media coverage are guaranteed in China. The Chinese government attaches importance to, and protects, human rights. We have incorporated these into the Chinese Constitution, and we also implement [them] in earnest. We don't think that we are impeccable in terms of human rights—it is true that in some places and in some areas, we have problems. Nonetheless, we are continuing to make improvements.

When I go to China and I'm in a hotel and I type the words "Tiananmen Square" into my computer, I get a firewall, what some people call the Great Firewall of China. Can you be an advanced society if you don't have freedom of information?

China now has over 200 million Internet users and the freedom of the Internet in China is recognized by many, even in the West. To uphold state security, China, like many countries in the world, has also imposed some proper restrictions. On the Internet in China, you can have access to a lot of postings that are quite critical about the government. It is exactly through reading these critical opinions on the Internet that we try to locate problems and further improve our work. I don't think a system or a government should fear critical opinions or views.

What are your favorite sites?

I've browsed a lot of Web sites.

There is a photograph of you at Tiananmen Square in 1989. What lesson did you take from your experiences in dealing with that problem? Did you feel it was necessary to stop political reform? Do you think in 25 years there will be national elections in which there will be competition?

I believe that while moving ahead with economic reforms, we also need to advance political reforms, as our development is comprehensive in nature, our reform should also be comprehensive. I think the core of your question is about the development of democracy in China. When it comes to the development of democracy in China, we can talk about progress in three areas.

No. 1: we need to gradually improve the democratic election system so that state power will truly belong to the people and state power will be used to serve the people.

No. 2: we need to improve the legal system, run the country according to law, and [have] an independent and just judicial system.

No. 3: government should be subject to oversight by the people. That will [require] us to increase transparency in government affairs. It is also necessary for government to accept oversight by the news media and other parties.

We need to take into account China's national conditions and we need to introduce a system that suits China's special features and we need to introduce a gradual approach.

It's hard for me to predict what will happen in 25 years. This being said, I have this conviction: that China's democracy will continue to grow. In 20 to 30 years, Chinese society will be more democratic and fairer and the legal system will be improved. Socialism as we see it will further mature and improve.

People say you're studying the Japanese system because there's democracy, but only one party seems to win elections. Is that the model you see for China?

There are multiple forms of democracy in the world. What is important is whether it really represents the interests of the people. Socialism as I understand it is a system of democracy. And such a democracy first and foremost should serve to ensure the people's right to democratic elections, oversight and decision making. Such a democracy should also help people to develop themselves in an all-around way in an environment featuring freedom and equality. And such a democracy should be based on a full-fledged legal system.

You've said that you've read the works of Marcus Aurelius a hundred times. He is a famous Stoic philosopher. My reading of him says that one should not be involved in the self, and in any kind of pursuits that are self-interested, but should be more for the community as a whole. When I go to China these days, I am struck by how much individualism there is, how much consumerism there is. Are you trying to send a signal to the Chinese people to think less about themselves and more about the community?

It is true I read the meditations of Marcus Aurelius on many occasions, and I was very deeply impressed by the words that he wrote. I very much value morality and do believe that entrepreneurs, economists and statesmen alike should pay much more attention to morality and ethics. In my mind, the highest standard to measure ethics and morality is justice. When we think about the economy, we think more about companies, capital, markets, technology, and so on. We might forget about elements like conviction and morality. Only when we combine these two kinds of factors can we [have] a full picture of the DNA of the economy. It is true that in the course of China's economic development, some companies have pursued profits at the expense of morality. We will never allow such things to happen, because such an approach simply cannot be sustained. That's why we advocate corporate, occupational and social ethics.

Let me ask you a final question. You must have been watching the American election. What is your reaction to this strange race?

The presidential election of the United States should be decided by the American people. What I follow very closely is [what] the relationship between China and the United States [will be like] after the election. In recent years, there has been sound growth in China-U.S. relations. We hope that whoever is elected president, he will continue to grow the relationship with China. And China hopes to continue to improve its relationship with the United States no matter who takes office.

URL: http://www.newsweek.com/id/161410

Here below is a transcript of Fareed Zakaria's interview with Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao.
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September 29, 2008 -- Updated 2220 GMT (0620 HKT)

Transcript of interview with Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao

Story Highlights
- Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao was interviewed by Fareed Zakaria last week
- Jiabao says China has achieved fast and steady economic growth
- He says U.S. financial difficulties impact China

Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao was interviewed by Fareed Zakaria on "Fareed Zakaria GPS" this weekend

Below is the complete transcript of Fareed Zakaria's interview with Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao. The interview was taped September 23, and portions were shown on "Fareed Zakaria GPS" on September 28.

Zakaria: We are now beginning the formal interview, just so everyone realizes.

Wen Jiabao: Before we begin, I would like to let you know that I will use the words from the bottom of my heart to answer your questions, which means that I will tell the truth to all your questions.

I always tell people that sometimes I may not tell what is on my mind, that as long as I speak out what is on my mind, the words are true.

I think you are now interviewing a statesman, and at the same time you are interviewing a statesman in his capacity as a common people.

I prefer dialogue to long-winded speeches, so you can always interrupt me and raise your questions. That would certainly make our dialogue more lively.

Zakaria: I look forward to the chance for this dialogue, and I begin by thanking you for giving us the opportunity and the honor. The first thing I have to ask you, I think is on many people's minds. What do you think of the current financial crisis affecting the United States, and does it make you think that the American model has many flaws in it that we are just recognizing now?

Wen Jiabao: I took office as the Chinese premier six years ago, and before then I was serving as the vice premier of the country. When I was the vice premier, I experienced another financial crisis but in Asia. And in wake of the Asian financial crisis, China adopted a proactive fiscal policy and decided not to devalue the RMB, the Chinese currency, but doing so we managed to overcome the difficulties. But now the problems in the United States started with the subprime crisis and later on, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were involved in the problems, and the Lehman Brothers was in trouble, Merrill Lynch was in trouble, the AIG was in trouble, and such large investment banking companies and insurance companies all encountered systematic problems.

And this has made me feel that this time the crisis that occurred in the United States may have an impact that will affect the whole world. Nonetheless, in face of such a crisis, we must also be aware that today's world is different from the world that people lived in back in the 1930s.

So this time we should join hands and meet the crisis together. If the financial and economic system in the United States go wrong, then the impact will be felt, not only in this country but also in China, in Asia and in the world at large.

I have noted a host of policies and measures adopted by the U.S. government to prevent an isolated crisis from becoming a systematic one, and I hope that measures and steps they have adopted will pay off. I also hope that these measures and steps will not only save some major U.S. financial companies but also help stabilize the U.S. economy and ensure that the U.S. economy will grow on a balanced course.

Zakaria: When you look at your own economy, as you know, there are many people who now say there will be a significant slowdown of the Chinese economy. There are people predicting that Chinese growth rates may slow to as much as 7 percent. Do you think that will happen? And if it does, I wonder, what do you think the consequences will be in China?

Wen Jiabao: Yes, indeed. China's economy has been growing at an annual average rate of 9.6 percent for 30 years running. This is a miracle.

Particularly between the year 2003 and 2007, China had enjoyed a double-digit growth for its economy, and at the same time the CPI grew in for less than 2 percent a year. It is fair to say that China has achieved a fairly fast and steady economic growth.

This time, China has been proactive in adopting regulatory measures. Our previous considerations were to prevent a fast-growing economy from becoming overheated and to prevent the faster soaring prices from becoming obvious inflation. But things have changed very fast, and I refer to the sub-prime crisis in the United States and the serious financial turbulences that follow the sub-prime crisis.

And as a result, we have seen a decline in external demand, and China's domestic demand can hardly be increased in a very significant manner in a short period of time. In this case, it is true that we do have this risk of a slowdown in the Chinese economy.

In this context, we must re-adjust the macroeconomic policy in China in order to adapt ourselves to external changes. What is most important is for us to strike a balance between economic growth, dampening the price rises and bringing inflation under control. And to strike a balance between job creation and dampening inflation and I know it's very, very difficult to strike a balance in all those areas.

We need to adopt a flexible and prudent macroeconomic policy to adapt to external changes in order to ensure very fast and steady economic growth and at the same time keeping inflation down.

Zakaria: Do you think you can continue to grow if the United States goes into a major recession?

Wen Jiabao: In the first half of this year, or given the statistics for the first eight months of this year, we can see that we have managed to do that.

A possible U.S. economic recession will certainly have an impact on the China economy. As we know that 10 years ago, the China-U.S. trade volume stood at only $102.6 billion U.S., while today the figures soar to $302 billion U.S., actually representing an increase of 1.5-fold. A shrinking of U.S. demand will certainly have an impact on China's export.

And the U.S. finance is closely connected with the Chinese finance. If anything goes wrong in the U.S. financial sector, we are anxious about the safety and security of Chinese capital.

That's why in the very beginning I have made it clear that the financial problems in this country not only concerns the interests of the United States but also that of China and the world at large.

Zakaria: There is another sense in which we are interdependent. China is the largest holder of U.S. Treasury bills. By some accounts, they're worth almost $1 trillion. It makes some Americans uneasy. Can you reassure them that China would never use this status as a weapon in some way?

Wen Jiabao: As I said, we believe that the U.S. real economy is still solidly based. Particularly the high-tech industries and the basic industries. Now, something has gone wrong in the virtual economy, but if this problem is properly addressed, then it is still possible to stabilize the economy in this country.

The Chinese government hopes very much that the U.S. side will be able to stabilize its economy and finance as quickly as possible, and we also hope to see sustained development in the United States as that will benefit China.

Of course, we are concerned about the safety and security of Chinese money here. But we believe that the United States is a credible country and particularly at such difficult times, China has reached out to the United States.

And actually we believe such a helping hand will help stabilize the entire global economy and finance and to prevent a major chaos from occurring in the global economic and financial system. I believe now cooperation is everything.

Zakaria: May I ask you about China's role in a broader sense? Many people see China as a superpower already, and they wonder: why is it not being more active in political resolution of issues such as the issue of Darfur or the issue of Iran and its nuclear ambitions?

There is a hope that China will play a role as a responsible stakeholder, to use Robert Zoellick's phrase when he was deputy secretary of state, and that China will be more active in managing the political problems in the world, and that so far it has not been active. How would you react to that?

Wen Jiabao: To answer this question, I need to correct some of the elements in your question first. China is NOT a superpower. Although China has a population of 1.3 billion and although in recent years China has registered fairly fast economic and social development since reform and opening up, China still has this problem of unbalanced development between different regions and between China's urban and rural areas. China remains a developing country.

We still have 800 million farmers in rural areas, and we still have dozens of million people living in poverty. As a matter of fact, over 60 million people in rural and urban areas in China still live on allowances for basic living costs in my country. And each year, we need to take care of about 23 million unemployed in urban areas and about 200 million farmers come and go to cities to find jobs in China. We need to make committed and very earnest efforts to address all these problems.

To address our own problems, we need to do a great deal. China is not a superpower. That's why we need to focus on our own development and on our efforts to improve people's lives.

Zakaria: But surely the Chinese government could pressure the Sudanese government or the Iranian government or the government in Burma to be less repressive. You have relations with all three of them.

Wen Jiabao: That brings me to your second question. Actually in the international community, China is a justice-upholding country. We never trade our principles.

Take the Darfur issue that you raised just now for example. China has always advocated that we need to adopt a dual-track approach to seek a solution to the Darfur issue. China was among the first countries sending peace-keepers to Darfur.

China was also the first country that gave assistance to Sudan and we also keep our efforts to engage the leaders in Sudan to try to seek a peaceful solution to the issue as quickly as possible.

Zakaria: Do you think it would be dangerous for the world if Iran got nuclear weapons? And what do you think the world should do to try to stop that possibility?

Wen Jiabao: We are not supportive of a nuclear rise to Iran. We believe that Iran has the right to develop a utilization of nuclear energy in a peaceful way. But such efforts should be subject to the safeguards of the [International Atomic Energy Agency], and Iran should not develop nuclear weapons. As far as the Iranian nuclear issue is concerned, China's stance is clear-cut.

We hope that through promoting the talks concerning this issue, that we will be able to encourage the Iranian authorities to give up any idea to develop nuclear weapons and accept IAEA safeguards.

Nonetheless, we hope that we can use peaceful talks to achieve the purpose, rather than resort to the willful use of force or the intimidation of force. It's like treating the relationship between two individuals. If one individual tries to corner the other, then the effect will be counterproductive. That will do nothing in helping resolve the problem. Our purpose is to resolve the problem, not to escalate tensions.

And I also have a question for you: Don't you think that the efforts made by China in resolving the Korean nuclear issue and position we have adopted in this regard have actually helped the situation on the Korean peninsula move for the better day by day? And, of course, I know that it still takes time to seek a thorough and complete solution to the Korean nuclear issue, and on that basis to help put in place the security and stability in Northeast Asia. But, what I'd like to stress is that the model that we have adopted, and the efforts we have made, prove to be right in this, in this direction.

Zakaria: Since you honored me by asking the question, I will say to you, premier, that China's efforts in North Korea have been appreciated in the United States and around the world. And of course it makes people wish that China would be active in other areas in just the same productive way that it was in North Korea because we see that it produces results.

Wen Jiabao: We have gained a lot of experience and learned lessons from years of negotiations concerning the six-party talks, and the progress made in the six-party talks also has a lot to do with the close cooperation among the six parties.

Zakaria: May I ask you about another set of possible talks? The Dalai Lama has said now it appears that he would accept China's rule in Tibet, he accepts the socialist system in Tibet, and what he asks for is cultural autonomy and a certain degree of political autonomy. The talks apparently are stuck at a lower level between the Tibetans and the Chinese government. Why don't you, given your power and your negotiating skills, take the issue yourself -- and you or President Hu Jintao would negotiate directly with the Dalai Lama and solve this issue once and for all for the benefit of the Chinese people, and of course the Tibetan people who are also in China?

Wen Jiabao: Our issue with the Dalai Lama is not an ethnic, religious or cultural issue in the ordinary sense. It's a major principled issue concerning safeguarding the country's unity or allowing efforts to separate a country. And we must adopt a two-pronged approach in viewing the Dalai Lama. On one hand, it is true that the Dalai is a religious leader, and he enjoys certain influence in the Tibetan region, and particularly in regions that the inhabitants believe in Buddhism. And, on the other hand, we must also be aware that he is not an ordinary religious figure. The so-called government in exile founded by the Dalai Lama practices a theocratic rule. And the purpose of this so-called government in exile is to separate Tibet from China.

In many places all over the world, the Dalai Lama keeps preaching about the idea of a so-called autonomy in the greater Tibetan region. And actually, the so-called autonomy that he pursues is actually to use religion to intervene in politics. They want to separate the so-called greater Tibetan region from the motherland. And many people in the United States have no idea how big is the so-called greater Tibetan region, the so-called greater Tibetan region, preached by the Dalai Lama, actually covers Tibet, Sichuan, Yunnan, Qinghai and Gansu -- altogether five provinces. And the area covered by the so-called greater Tibetan region accounts for a quarter of China's territory.

For decades, our policy towards the Dalai Lama remains unchanged: that is, as long as the Dalai Lama is willing to recognize that Tibet is an inalienable part of China's territory, and as long as the Dalai Lama gives up his separatist activities, we're willing to have contact and talks with him or his representatives.

Now, sincerity holds the key to producing result out of the talks. After the Tibet incident back in the 1950's, the highest leader of the central government, Mr. Deng Xiaoping, also met the representatives of the Dalai Lama.

So, I don't think there is this problem, as whether I can have contact with the Dalai Lama. The real key lies in the effectiveness of such contact and talks.

We hope that he can use real actions to show sincerity and break the deadlock.

Zakaria: What action would you like to see from the Dalai Lama that would show sincerity?

Wen Jiabao: Actually, I already made it clear that when we observe any individual, the Dalai Lama included, we should not only watch what, we should not only observe what he says, but also watch what he does.

His sincerity can be demonstrated in giving up separatist activities.

Zakaria: And then you might meet with him?

Wen Jiabao: By then, everything depends on the development of the situation. Of course, talks may continue, and in light of the progress in the talks, we may also consider raising the level of the talks.

Zakaria: Premier Wen, your country has grown, as you pointed out, 9½ percent for 30 years -- fastest growth rate of any country in history. If people come to you and say to you, "What is the Chinese model of succeeding as a developing country?" What would you say? What is the key to your success? What is the model?

Wen Jiabao: It's easy to answer this question, that you may think about this thing -- that about 30 years ago, why China was not able to grow as fast as it has in the following years. I think this is attributable to the reforms and opening up a policy we introduced in 1978. This holds the key to China's success. By introducing reform and opening up, we have greatly emancipated productivity in China.

We have one important thought: that socialism can also practice market economy.

Zakaria: People think that's a contradiction. You have the market economy, where the market allocates resources, and in socialism, it's all central planning. How do you make both work?

Wen Jiabao: The complete formulation of our economic policy is to give full play to the basic role of market forces in allocating resources under the macroeconomic guidance and regulation of the government.

We have one important piece of experience of the past 30 years: that is to ensure that both the visible hand and the invisible hand are given full play in regulating the market forces.

If you are familiar with the classical works of Adam Smith, you will know that there are two famous works of his. One is "The Wealth of Nations"; the other is the book on the morality and ethics. And, "The Wealth of Nations" deals more with the invisible hand that are the market forces. And the other book deals with social equity and justice. And in the other book he wrote, he stressed the importance of playing the regulatory role of the government to further distribute the wealth among the people.

If in a country, most of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few, then this country can hardly witness harmony and stability.

The same approach also applies to the current U.S. economy. To address the current economic and financial problems in this country, we need to apply not only the visible hand but also the invisible hand.

Zakaria: May I ask you -- some Americans and Europeans, particularly human rights observers, say that China has cracked down on human rights over the last few years, that they had been hoping that the Olympics would lead to an opening of China, but that it has, there has been more repression. How would you respond to that?

Wen Jiabao: By hosting the Olympic Games, China has actually become more open. Anyone without biases will see -- have seen that. In the freedom of speech and the freedom in news media coverage are guaranteed in China. The Chinese government attaches importance to, and protects, human rights. We have incorporated these lines into the Chinese constitution, and we also implement the stipulation in real earnest. I think for any government, what is most important, is to ensure that its people enjoy each and every right given to them by the constitution.

Including their right to survival, freedom and to pursue their happiness.

We don't think that we are impeccable in terms of human rights. It is true that in some places and in some areas, we do have problems of this kind or that kind. Nonetheless, we are continuing to make efforts to make improvements, and we want to further improve human rights in our country.

Zakaria: When I go to China and I'm in a hotel and I type in the words Tiananmen Square in my computer, I get a firewall, what some people call the Great Firewall of China. Can you be an advanced society if you don't have freedom of information to find out information on the Internet?

Wen Jiabao: China now has over 200 million Internet users, and the freedom of Internet in China is recognized by many, even from the west. Nonetheless, to uphold state security, China, like many countries in the world, has also imposed some proper restrictions. That is for the safety, that is for the overall safety of the country and for the freedom of the majority of the people.

I can also tell you on the Internet in China, you can have access to a lot of postings that are quite critical about the government.

It is exactly through reading these critical opinions on the Internet that we try to locate problems and further improve our work.

I don't think a system or a government should fear critical opinions or views. Only by heeding those critical views would it be possible for us to further improve our work and make further progress.

I frequently browse the Internet to learn about a situation.

Zakaria: What are your favorite sites?

Wen Jiabao: I've browsed a lot of Internet Web sites.

Zakaria: I will take advantage of your kindness and ask you a question that many people around the world wonder about. There is a very famous photograph of you at Tiananmen square in 1989. What lesson did you take from your experiences in dealing with that problem in 1989?

Wen Jiabao: I believe that while moving ahead with economic reforms, we also need to advance political reforms, as our development is comprehensive in nature, our reform should also be comprehensive.

I think the core of your question is about the development of democracy in China. I believe when it comes to the development of democracy in China, we talk about progress to be made in three areas:

No. 1: We need to gradually improve the democratic election system so that state power will truly belong to the people and state power will be used to serve the people

No. 2: We need to improve the legal system, run the country according to law, and establish the country under the rule of law and we need to view an independent and just judicial system.

No. 3: Government should be subject to oversight by the people and that will ask us, call on us to increase transparency in government affairs and particularly it is also necessary for government to accept oversight by the news media and other parties.

There is also another important aspect that when it comes to development of democracy in China, we need to take into account China's national conditions, and we need to introduce a system that suits China's special features, and we need to introduce a gradual approach.

Zakaria: People say you're studying the Japanese system because there's democracy but there's only one party that seems to win the elections. Is that the kind of model you see for China?

Wen Jiabao: I think there are multiple forms of democracy in the world. What is important is the substance of democracy.

Which means that at the end of the day, what is important about democracy is that whether such form of democracy can really represent the calling and interest of the people.

Socialism as I understand it is a system of democracy. Without democracy, there is no socialism.

And such a democracy first and foremost should serve to ensure people's right to democratic elections, oversight and decision making.

Such a democracy should also help people to fully develop themselves in an all-around way in an environment featuring freedom and equality.

And such a democracy should be based on a full-fledged legal system. Otherwise, there would be chaos. That's why we need to run the country according to law and ensure that everyone is equal under the law.

Zakaria: We've talked about elections many times. Do you think in 25 years there will be national elections in which there will be a competition, there will be perhaps two parties, that will be running for a position such as your own?

Wen Jiabao: It's hard for me to predict what will happen in 25 years time. This being said, I have this conviction -- that China's democracy will continue to grow. In 20 to 30 years time, the whole Chinese society will be more democratic and fairer, and the legal system in China will further be improved. The socialism as we see it will further mature and improve.

Zakaria: Let me ask you, premier, finally a couple of questions that are personal. You've said that you've read the works of Marcus Aurelius a hundred times. Marcus Aurelius is a famous stoic philosopher. My reading of him says that one should not be involved in the self, and in any kind of pursuits that are self-interested but should be more for the community as a whole. When I go to China these days, I am struck by how much individualism there is, how much consumerism there is. Are you trying to send a signal to the Chinese people to think less about themselves and more about the community?

Wen Jiabao: It is true I did read the meditations written by Marcus Aurelius Antonio on many occasions, and I was very deeply impressed by the words that he wrote in the book -- to be fact - where are those people that were great for a time? They are all gone, leaving only a story, or some even just half a story. So I draw the conclusion that only people are in the position to create history and write history.

I very much value morality, and I do believe that entrepreneurs, economists and statesmen alike should pay much more attention to morality and ethics.

In my mind, the highest standard to measure the ethics and morality is justice.

That's why in the morning when I answered the question, I said that I believe in the veins of the economist, we should see the blood of morality.

When we think about economy, we think more about the real elements concerning the company, the capital, the market, the technology, so on and so forth. And we might forget about the other sort of elements that work behind the scene, and these factors are also affected by the visible factors like conviction and morality. Only when we combine these two kinds of factors, can we put in place a full picture of the DNA of the economy.

It is true in the course of China's economic development, some companies have actually pursued their profits at the expense of morality and we will never allow such things to happen.

We will not allow economic growth at the expense of the loss of morality because such approach simply can not sustain.

That's why we advocate the corporate, occupational and social ethics.

Zakaria: Let me ask you a final question, your excellency. You must have been watching the American election. What is your reaction to the strange race and election that we are having in this country?

Wen Jiabao: The presidential election of the United States should be decided by the American people. But what I follow very closely is the relationship between China and the United States after the election. In recent years, there has been a sound growth momentum in the growth of China-U.S. relations. And we hope, and whoever is elected as the president and whoever is sworn in into the White House, no matter which party wins the election, that he or she and the parties will continue to grow the relationship with China. And China hopes to continue to improve and grow its relationship with the United States no matter who will take office and lead the new administration in this country.

Zakaria: On that happy note, I thank you, your excellency. I'm sure your people are worried we took a little extra time. And I thank you in advance for your kindness and your frankness.